Playwright's Podcast: Transcript of Series 6 Episode 1 - Amir Gudarzi talks to Omar Elerian

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This is the transcript of the recorded conversation between Amir Gudarzi (AG) and Omar Elerian (OE), recorded for Series 6 of the Royal Court Playwright’s Podcast. This conversation was recorded in March 2022. The following content may contain strong language. 

SERIES INTRO

OE Hi my name is Omar Elerian and I’m a freelance theatre maker & director of Italian Palestinian heritage based in Milan. For many years I’ve had the privilege of working in many different countries including the UK, where I worked for seven years as Associate Director at London’s Bush theatre. I work mainly on new plays and new work created by emerging & diverse artists, which is why I’m excited to host this series of conversations with international playwrights for the Royal Court. 

The International Playwrights’ Programme at the Royal Court builds and develops the theatre’s relationships with writers from around the world. Forming long-term partnerships with theatre makers and organisations from different traditions, working in different languages and cultural contexts. They do this through long-term writers’ groups, residencies, exchange projects and productions of work by international artists. The Programme also seeks to support the practice of theatre in translation through working with translators at different stages of their career. 

All of the writers featured in this series have engaged with the Programme in different ways across the last 18 months.  

I hope you will enjoy listening & discovering the work of these extraordinary artists who come from the broadest range of backgrounds and approaches, in a testament to our unflinching need to connect with one another, and expand our experience of what theatre is & can be from different vantage points. 

WRITER INTRO

OE Hello, my name is Omar Elerian and I’m your host for today and it is my pleasure to introduce you to the first writer of our series of podcasts. 

Amir Gudarzi is a writer born in Tehran, Iran, in 1986. He graduated at the only school for theatre the country had at that time. Due to censorship his plays were only shown in private circles. And since 2009, Amir has lived in involuntary exile in Vienna, Austria. In 2017, he won the exil-DramatikerInnenpreis for his play ‘Between Us and Them Lies…’ In 2018, his play ‘Arash, the Returnee’ premiered under the title ‘Arash//Heimkehrer’ in Vienna and his play ‘The Knowledge Tree’ was shown in Jerusalem. In 2019, his play ‘The Assassin’s Castle’ was invited to the Berlin Stückemarkt, and in 2020 the play ‘Jelly Man – The Future in between my Fingers’ premiered in Vienna. In 2022 his play ‘Wonderwomb’ won the Kleist Prize for playwriting. Amir now lives in Vienna and is working on his debut novel. 

CONVERSATION

And hello, good afternoon, Amir. 

AG Hi, good afternoon. 

OE And where are you calling from today? We are on Zoom. And I can see a lot of books behind you. 

AG If you look at the books, between the books you can see a window and then behind this window is Stephansplatz in Vienna… No, just joking. I’m in Vienna but not living in a luxury part of Vienna. 

OE And how long have you been living in Vienna? 

AG Since 2009, but in between I lived in Central Asia as well. In Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and around, for one and a half years. But most of the time in Tajikistan and then in Vienna. 

OE And have you adapted to life in Vienna? Are you a fully–fledged Austrian? Have you mastered the language? 

AG In a way. I took actually the Viennese accent. it sounds very Viennese. In Germany they look at me as a Viennese guy, but in Austria the problem is I’m not that blonde or I don’t have blue eyes to be accepted or seen as Austrian. But in Germany they are more into me as an Austrian, Viennese guy than in my own country. 

OE And it’s great to have you here and to be able to speak a bit about your work as a writer and your work as a writer that writes across different languages. But the first question I have for you is why theatre? What brought you to choose theatre as the specific medium of your work? 

AG

The idea of working in theatre actually was simple… That childish idea of being famous as an actor. Because this… the only theatre school we had back at that time in Tehran was like on the way to the house of my grandparents. And I saw it always from the window of the bus or from the window of the car, and I was thinking of being a famous actor simply. I hadn’t been in theatre at all, but when I started to study in the schools at around 14, really quickly this childish idea was disappearing. I was in the theatre for first time in my life and I was really shocked to have this kind of wonder world in the theatre. And I started digging, reading, I went more into plays and watched more performances, and I realised there is something for me here that I can actually dig up, in a way. 

First of all, I was into theatre because theatre is life. It means there is no censorship, or less than everywhere else in a dictatorship like Iran. That was interesting because I knew about a kind of similar theatre to commedia dell’arte, a very traditional way of theatre in Iran, and they also used theatre to criticise regimes. Which was so important because there was no record and no control, it was life and they could do whatever they wanted. And I realised through the life happening on the stage you could establish a discourse actually. Because TV is in the hands of the regime, they are very focussed on it, they control it very hard. But theatre is a bit more free. And the stage became a space for thinking about the world. I mean, if we stay with a classical play like ‘Hamlet’… nobody is gonna talk like ‘to be or not to be’. But that’s the stage, it’s the way you think about the most important existential questions. A basic philosophy of life. That was very amazing to me. And that’s why I decided, as a very young guy, as a teenager, this was the medium for me. 

I was surprised that there was this magic world outside and I didn’t know about it! Because there is no tradition of going to theatre with school or something like that. So I discovered it on my own. And there’s also something cynical going on in a country like Iran, which I call the master of monologues… Because in Iran someone is always delivering a monologue. The leader has a monologue. The God has a monologue. And that is a dictatorship. There is a school for theatre where you can learn that a monologue is not the only form of communication, there is dialogue as well. That’s very cynical, but I was lucky to be in this one school and learn more. 

OE And I’m curious about what kind of shows or performances you were watching at the time? Was it in Farsi? Was it traditional Iranian theatre? I know there has been for a number of years a very famous festival, the Farj Festival in Tehran, which brings a lot of work from artists from all over the world… So what kind of work were you most intrigued by at the time? 

AG There were like a bunch of plays from Iranian writers. Modern plays. The traditional ones were not interesting at the beginning for me, because I felt I already knew them in a way, and then realised after a while the ideas behind them, and then they became interesting. But at the beginning I was interested in the Western way of theatre. So there were modern plays from Iranian playwrights and also the translations of modern plays from the whole world. Because… I don’t know how it is recently, but when I was young there was a tradition of publishing plays. So at least there would be books for people like me, for students and so on. And we were able to buy, mostly, English–speaking plays and also the classics. So I was, for example, very curious about Edward Albee and also David Mamet. And so when I came to the Royal Court I tried to read all of these plays again in English, because I knew them in Farsi and knew them in German, so I thought I would try at least to read the original. 

OE And how did writing come specifically to become your medium of choice? You said you started through acting or being fascinated by acting, but I’m quite curious… You mentioned censorship and the fact that theatre that wasn’t scripted was able to bend the limits of censorship, but to then be putting words on paper feels like a much more deliberate act. When did that happen for you? 

AG I mean, as I mentioned before, it was a childish idea to become famous. And then after a while I realised that’s not my thing. I want to establish discourse. That’s why I became more into writing or thinking of discourse. 

I was also in a group of young people that tried to think about new topics through sketches and short plays. And then we would try to stage it on our own, because sometimes you can’t mention a war, but you can point to it in a theatrical way, and the audience will get you without you calling [naming] the war. That’s something that very interesting in theatre. That’s how it is possible to get through the censorship. But in a way, I was not interested in having a huge audience because there are controls if you want to have an audience outside [in public].  

We were lucky also because I had a friend who has a rich father. And through him we got a huge parking garage in a building, and it was like our own small theatre. So we could have audiences there when we were like 17, 18 and 19. And we also did some plays in the desert, so there would be no controls. And we also did plays in the school, where we had a stage as well and where there were no controls. It was only the teachers, but they were not trying to control us in this way because it was not a public space. 

OE Which brings me to my next question, which is what is the role, in your opinion, in Iran, of theatre and new writing specifically? I mean, I know you’ve left now for a number of years, but who would come? And were there different scenes as you described, depending on what people were interested in and invested in? 

AG

I mean, I realised that mediums like cinema, theatre… they have a power. They have a political power. Because otherwise, why would the regime be so afraid of these mediums and censor them? That’s why theatre for me is a political instrument as well as an artistic one. It’s supposed to be political because you can establish discourses in this medium. For sure, I always write plays with a bit of joy so the audience can have also a bit of spectacle, but really I’m just talking about political issues. And that’s an important part of my work. So that that’s why in Iran I was more interested in theatre because I realised they are really afraid of theatre. They are really afraid of film, because I wrote scripts from film as well. And I knew it was our instrument to fight against this regime. I mean, we were also very naive, thinking if every night there are five people leaving the theatre and thinking differently, in some months you have 100 of these people and that is exciting. Because in these countries you are not able to reach people so easily. And that is why we needed dialogue in the society, to deal with the idea of censorship, dictatorship and so on. 

When I live in Iran there were only states theatres, but in the last 10 years there are now a bunch of private theatres that are less controlled. Some of them, of course, are just for profiting and show big spectaculars and comedies and so on, but there are a few theatres that I think are doing a good job… But, as you know, when you don’t live there it’s difficult to know because that’s the idea of theatre: you need to be there. But I think Iran is one of the few countries where people queue over the weekend to go to theatre! The same lines you see in London for discotheques, they are in Tehran for plays or performances. Of course, there is also a lack of discos and parties and so on, maybe that’s why the people want to go to theatre or to movies. That’s why the regime is afraid of these mediums. 

OE And how did you find then arriving in Austria, in Europe, and starting to work internationally? What was the difference in terms of writing for a new audience, or did you initially write for a diasporic audience of Iranians that had also moved to Europe? 

AG Actually, at the beginning I was busy learning the language. Because there is really a huge change in the life of a young man coming to Europe. I was not at all thinking about writing for diasporic Iranians because that is a really small community. And also I was not able to work in this language because I had such an issue with it… I actually had quite a traumatised experience with the language. I wanted to forget this language. I didn’t want to work in this language anymore. And that’s why I started with German as a medium to get rid of my mother tongue. And then through German I could find a way back to my mother tongue because I realised German is also a guilty language because the national structure of the German language was used in Second World War for the mass killing and Shoah. And then I realised there is no place in another language for me to flee my mother tongue and I went through it and I could find my own language. Go back to my mother language. But I made the decision to write in German because it is a challenge as well. I wanted to have this challenge. The grammar in German is very rigid, but it is a language in which you can do a lot. The language is like a big room that you are in and you cannot escape because the language is working a lot. The language is changing. The grammar is changing. Your body has two things… you know this idea of the dative accusative, is changing because of the distance and movement you have. And the grammar is very interesting. And I was fascinated by this language in a way because I don’t know it at all. There would be a new word and I would try to figure out what is this word. And then the second challenge was to try to break the rules of this language. Break the grammar of this language. And there is a privilege in learning a language that is not your mother tongue, because you are less critical of mother tongue. It is something related to your emotion. You learn it. But in a new language every word has a new meaning, and I would try to think about the background of this word, why it means what it means, and use it a lot in my writing. For example, it’s the language of everyday life that I’m using. I’m playing aloud with German. Then all of a sudden German speakers may stumble on words I’m using because they know the word but the way I’m using it, they don’t know it, because of the rigid way of grammar. Yeah… you asked something different and I asked answered something different… 

OE No, no, no! That’s really fascinating. What you mentioned about erasing your mother tongue and finding it again by learning another language, and starting to write in another language feels really important. And I’m curious because I’ve read some of your plays, and while you mentioned Alby and Mamet earlier, I was fascinated by how you give voice sometimes to inanimate objects or to raw data or to relics. And I wonder whether that is connected to using a new language in a more analytical way? 

AG Giving animals voice is related, for me, to the idea of theatre as a magical place. For me, it is quite boring to see two or three people sitting on stage and talking about oil. So, for example, I am searching for exciting ways to talk about oil, the story behind the oil, oil as a matter of capitalism, as money, as income for dictators and so on. So it is not possible, at least for me, to write a play about such things with two or three actors on stage just discussing it. That’s why I tried to find new ways, new forms, with which to talk about new ideas or new challenges in the world. So in fact, for example, talking about ‘Wonderwomb’, oil changed our life, changed our world, changed my life and the life of people in the Middle East and also in Europe. And if you look at climate change oil is playing a big role. And look at the conflicts now, the war between Russia and Ukraine, oil is still playing a big role. All of a sudden you are paying more to drive your car. Everything is related to each other and what is actually my duty? My duty as a playwright is to think about the language and talking about new challenges. Because unfortunately people try to imitate Hollywood or soap operas and so on, and we’re going to lose because theatre cannot win against Hollywood with their money and the whole show! That’s why we need to find a new way in this magical world. On the black stage. To have discussion and discourse and be interesting in terms of form while talking about the big topics. Do something they are not able to do in Hollywood or with soap operas. That’s why I try to use language in a different way. For me, the alternative is really boring. I don’t want to write the same sentences, the same words that you hear every day. That you see everyday in soap operas and movies. You go to theatres and they’re repeating all this. That’s not my theatre. The idea of theatre is pointing at the language, understanding the language, why we’re using the language in this way. Why must language be fact? Language, actually, is changing the way we think. Language is related to history, history is related to us and is also changing our lives. I can give you an example… In English you say ‘director of theatre’, in German you say ‘Theaterdirektor’. It means the institution comes first and then the person, and that reflects the way of thinking. Because in other countries, the person, the human being comes first and then the institution. And if you look at the institutions in Germany, and the way of their thinking, the language gives you a key to understand the society. The same way Freud, for example, knew for a long time that the fascists, the Nazis were coming into power, because he was listening to the language people were using. And you can see or hear signs of change that are coming, you just need to listen to it. If you were born in a city near the sea, you don’t hear the sea. If you move to the sea, you hear the sea every night, and I’m someone who moved to the sea! In this case, Austria, and the German language. That’s why, because everything is new, I try to ask myself why is it like this and not like that? 

OE That’s really interesting because the metaphor that you just used, to me, sounds very Iranian. It’s a form of speaking that I’ve encountered with my Iranian friends, which for instance, I encounter a lot less speaking with my British counterparts. Nobody would come up with this beautiful image of moving to the sea and being able to hear the sound of it. Can I tease you a bit about your time in London? You said you came to the Royal Court and were able to read a few of the plays that you had read originally in Farsi, but what did you think about the theatre you saw in in London? 

AG

Besides the plays I have seen at the Royal Court, it is only like one or two plays… but to be honest, it was boring to go to theatre in London because the way they have of understanding theatre is very classical, to the point where it’s like a museum of theatre. 

It is very good to know that there is a part of the world where the playwright is important as a person in theatre. It’s not the same in German-speaking countries, as a playwright you are not part of the team, they don’t think of you at all as part of the team, you don’t have any idea what they are doing with your play, they don’t ask you and then they invite you to the premiere one or two days before! The fact that the playwright is part of the team and is established, and there is a respect towards this person, it is very good. But the fact that your forms are very classical, it makes theatre, for me, boring. So I’m into finding new ways to discuss new challenges, and also find new forms that are different to soap operas, Hollywood and so on. And that wasn’t always the fact in London. 

But I was really excited to see how nice people are at the Royal Court. Because in German-speaking countries, there is a sense of power in the hands of one person, the director for example, and at the Royal Court they have different departments with different powers and they are talking to each other, and they are very respectful. That could be a model for German-speaking countries. And the fact that the playwright could also be part of the team and not left out, that is another thing German-speaking countries could copy, because that’s helpful for theatre. 

For me, it was very interesting to talk with actors about my plays. Because theatre, like the society in the UK, is a bit more open in comparison to German-speaking countries. There, most of the people are originally German, there are few people from migrant families, second or third generation, but in the UK it’s a bit different. You’ll have a lot of people from different backgrounds. They are all citizens of the UK, they’ve been born there, but they know the reality of life from other worlds. They know, at least, where a country is that I’m mentioning! And that is very specifically to do with a history of the UK, sure, but Germany also had colonies in Africa. But in the cultural spaces in Germany, it is mostly white Germans sitting in the high positions. And for me, it was interesting to discuss my plays with the actors because they were also very excited that I’m talking about different challenges, about history, and in a new way. Not just that there is a character who had a difficult childhood where he was beaten up by his father, and that’s why he’s a murderer now. I mean, you can see that in series and soap operas and movies, but in theatre it’s not interesting. At least not for me. 

OE I understand absolutely your point in terms of reclaiming the liveness of the experience and the fact that it is a medium that can allow you to do more than just tell a good story, you know. I completely understand that and I’m really fascinated by how you were able to kind of find that through line in a foreign language or in a language that you had to learn because you arrived in Austria. Do you think you would write in a different way had not learned another language or would you write the same kind of plays? 

AG Definitely that would be the case because a new language, like German, is a new world. And it widened my way of thinking because the language is not only an instrument, it is also an instrument that you think with. And the fact that I have like more ways to describe my ideas, in more languages, helps the way I’m writing. But also the fact that the languages are always censoring themselves as well, due to their histories. That’s why, for example, in some languages you are not able to talk about sexuality but you can do it in other languages. You know, some languages are silent when it comes to certain topics and other languages are very talkative. And I use this, trying to force the languages to talk and not be silenced. And the fact that I can think in at least two languages, if I’m not talking about English, helps and changes the way of writing for myself. For example, it’s also very important to know that this language is German, with its specific history. If you think about Jewish exile, most of these people were German speakers, so the language they are talking is the language of the people who want kill them. And they are thinking in this language. They love this language, and so on. I don’t want to compare my life with this as it is completely different, but I was also inspired by these people, because I was all of a sudden able to understand them. 

OE Thank you for sharing that. That’s really very powerful. 

I wanted to ask you a question about now. What is it lately that you have been inspired by and it doesn’t need to be theatre related, but I’m always curious when I meet other artists about the thing they’ve seen in the last few months that made them go, ‘Oh, wow, that’s interesting.’ 

AG Most of the time, I think inspiration comes from the world. Just looking at the things happening around, and also the books I’m reading, or the research I’m doing. I was doing a lot of research while I was in London, maybe for a play, and the British have a way of communicating where they’re talking between the lines. I don’t get them, because they are not talking directly to you.  

At one point I thought, ‘Okay, I’m going to be there, talking to actors, doing research and having a good time,’ but then doing the research here was very interesting for me, because I started to think about the idea of museums. The British Museum for example and the relation of the museum to the history of the UK. Why actually do you need a museum? What’s the idea behind the museum or behind the zoo for example? What do you want to demonstrate actually? Is it your power? And each artefact in a museum has some story and these stories are related to some parts of the world. 

So if you’re talking about the Middle East, for example, the Cylinder of Cyrus in the British Museum, was found in Iraq. Nationalists in Iran later claimed this artifact for themselves, but it was found in Iraq. But then the Shah of Iran brought it for the first time back to Iran to build his narrative as the King of Kings. As a dictator you need a narrative always, a nationalist narrative. He brought it to Iran for the first time for an exhibition, but behind the curtain of acquiring this artifact that the British had stolen from somewhere in Iraq, he was buying weapons. You steal some artifacts, put them in a museum to show off your power, and then, to allow a dictator like the Shah to borrow this artefact, to be the King of Kings and build his nationalist narrative, you’re gonna make a weapons deal.  And then the second time the artefact was brought to Iran there was a different regime, with Ahmadinejad, that required a totally different narrative, different regime, Islamic ideas blah, blah, blah. And for a second time, they want to bring this artefact to Iran and put it on display. In 2009, for the first time we had these huge demonstrations in Iran where they shot and killed people openly. I was still in Iran, I was part of these demonstrations. And still the British Museum would not say, ‘Okay, not now. Not anymore for you Mr. Ahmadinejad’. They were allowed to borrow the artefact in 2010 and put it on display. 

If you do a lot of research you’re going to find a lot of really small connections that are invisible but are very important. Because everything happening around us has influenced our life, and causes damage or not. So, if you look at the war now, you have seen the benzene prices, and then you see that wheat is getting more expensive. And the fact that bread is gonna be more expensive could also cause damages to regimes like in Iran, or they’re afraid of famine in Egypt for example. They’re afraid of it. I mean, it is a war of one dictator causing damage to other dictators. You know, there are a lot of small connections that we don’t think about. But that’s my duty. And for me that’s inspiration. 

OE That’s a great way of putting it. For you at least, is role of the playwright is to be that kind of onlooker on the world? To connect the dots between these fractured realities? 

AG For me yes, because I’m a storyteller but I’m only able to tell the stories that are interesting to me. So telling a story where I know how it ends is boring for me. I’m not into telling these kinds of stories. I’m not a good storyteller in a way, I want to do research and figure out more on my own and then share it. That is a journey for me as well. If I know the story I want to tell I am just putting it together, and for what? If I want to earn money I can do it with business. I don’t look at the theatre like that. There is a business, but there’s always a journey for me as well, to discover more. 

OE That’s great. 

I have a last question, which I kind of feel like you’ve almost already answered, but I’ll ask it anyway. What is the burning question you’re grappling with at the moment? 

AG For now I’m doing research for two plays. One play I still need to finish next month because I’m going to be co-directing this play at the end of the year in Vienna. And I’m doing a lot of research and thinking about weapons actually. And also the idea of weapons, why and how? If you look at weapons they have been interesting parts of capitalism. That’s also another question I have been dealing with. How was capitalism able to grow and take such power? There are ideas around electricity for example, I’m thinking about electricity a lot. And also weapons, because we know 16th-century European countries were able to colonise other countries because of the new weapons they had. So I’m going through this idea of weapons as something very usual for us. We don’t think about it at all. And you still see that war shows us that the [country] that has better weapons can easily attack other countries, and the fact that most of the European countries are working with factories that are producing weapons and making profit shows that Western power goes hand in hand with weapons. And actually, some of these weapons factories are working for the Ministries of Defence in Germany, the UK, France, and so on. And we are always talking about these countries selling weapons to Middle East and dictators and so on. And people say that’s bad blah, blah, blah, but the society profits from it. So the fact that you are living like this in London, is partly because of the money from the weapons trade with colonial countries and so on. And people don’t want to give this money back. 

But I tried to go through these ideas and find new facts and see how everything is possible because I think history affects our life now. But somehow history is repeating itself. We are still in a in a period of time where history is repeating itself. In a different way but in a very similar way. So that’s why I’m doing research, learning more about the history. 

OE That reminds me of a show I saw once by a company called Rimini Protokoll, which you might know? I think in 2014, they brought this show to the Theatertreffen. And it was about the weapons market, or in a way how weapons touch all aspects of our lives. It was an installation in, I think 20 rooms, and you would go around with an iPad and you actually went up into a war hospital in Sierra Leone or into a space with a sniper in Israel, and then in a factory where they’re making parts in Switzerland, and you could just see how the pipeline of money and technology resulted in violence and bloodshed, and how politics and the economy and war are intertwined, almost tangled in a knot that cannot be unbound. So, yes, it’s a really fascinating thing to dive into. Good luck! 

AG Thank you! 

But the fact that capitalism has no face and in a digital world, we are we are not able to attack a symbol of capitalist because there is no money you can touch or attack. You cannot attack numbers. That’s why we are all confused. 

That’s where we find some of the routes of racism because if I point at migrants and say okay, that they are the reason you lack money and the bad job you have and so on. You have at least a face, you can attack or you can hate. But the fact that the capitalist has no face is very confusing and very frightening, I do understand. 

Now we have Putin as a face, as a devil face, as a person we can hate… I mean, it’s understandable that we can hate him. But that reminds of the old world where there is good and bad. Because in a digital world, we are confused. We don’t have any idea what we can do. How can you protest against capitalism? Where are the capitalists? They don’t have a nationality, they don’t have a face, that’s a fascinating idea. And governments go hand in hand with them, but somehow have no power as well. If you look at Greece, they don’t have power, they cannot change things. This country is like a ball in the hands of some other concerns, and so on.   

So the fact that we’re confused, about good, bad and so on, that we always need a face, we have it also about weapons. So say somebody is using these weapons, like an Isis guy or a terrorist, or in the case of Germany a Nazi using a weapon, we always talk about this crazy guy who has some issues, he’s an Islamist, he’s a terrorist, but we never talk about the weapon which is always just behind. The weapons and the people producing them could also be part of this. And if you go through history, you’re gonna find a lot of interesting connections again. And that’s what I try to go through, not thinking about the psychologically of the killer and so on.  It is interesting, but for me these other aspects might be more and I’m trying to discover this.  But I’ve talked a lot, sorry! 

OE That’s great. We need a whole series of podcasts about this subject. 

I would like to end with one last thing, which I always like to do in conversations… Can you recommend me something? To read, to look, to watch? I always feel like when you meet people, and especially people who have different life experiences or live in another country, it’s always important to be able to expand each other’s horizon. So I think an act of exchange is always nice. 

AG Oh, but unfortunately I’m not able to give a recommendation! I mean, I’m not a smart guy, I pretend to be! 

OE I mean, is there a book or a play that I should know about? Or a film that you saw recently that you found interesting? 

AG I’m not able to recommend something, because that’s a good question…  I mean…  Sorry…   Wait…  I don’t know!  I mean do whatever is interesting for you! I think the fact that we are very different, in the way that every human being is so different, makes it very difficult. 

OE Let me maybe rephrase that question then. If I wanted to know more about you through a book or a piece of art, what would it be? 

AG This question is difficult to answer! If you find the answer please tell me. Because each of us is full of small pieces from different ideas, books and so on. And sometimes it’s difficult to say like, which idea come from this book or that book? I mean, what I can say is that details are important for me. I’m full of details. 

So the fact that I try to always to find small connections… for instance this neon light that they use in the hours after somebody kills another person, they use this light to try to find the blood and so on. So if I look at the story of something happening I try to turn on that special light and figure out the hidden parts. 

OE Brilliant. 

AG Between the lines, like the English. 

OE Subtext. Thanks a lot Amir. It was a pleasure to speak with you today. 

AG Thank you, Omar. 

SERIES OUTRO

OE Thanks for listening to the Royal Court Theatre’s Playwrights Podcast, if you’d like to listen to more make sure you subscribe to get the next episode. The Playwrights Podcast is brought to you by the Royal Court theatre, presented by me Omar Elerian, produced by Anoushka Warden and Emily Legg and with music by Kareem Samara.